An interview with the author Uday Kagal

Shame on you white man: You Stole my children (again!)

An interview with author Uday Kagal:

1. I would like to begin by congratulating you on the publication of “Shame on You White Man.” How has the response to the book been so far?

Uday Kagal: Thank you so much. I have not really actively promoted the book except to my personal connections. There was a lot of initial interest, many of them bought and read the book, and some got back to say it was informative and made them reflect on the life we lead. That was the intention, and I’m happy about it. But it has been limited because I have not promoted it much.

2. What led to the idea of writing about multiple issues in the framework of “Shame on You White Man”? Were there any events that inspired the work?

Uday Kagal: I have led a varied life. Had started out with wanting to be a vet, then chose Rural Management and rural development. It transformed my life, being a big city boy until then. I saw the real India, and a whole new way of life. This was much more so when I met the tribal people (Santhals) in Bihar over 30 years ago. Their life seemed idyllic, peaceful and harmonious with the environment. It made me question whether we were there to develop them or to suck them into our paradigm of progress (my “development dilemma”). I’m still stuck with this question, “Has civilization meant progress?”

It is a big question and to answer it I had to look in different places – philosophy, biology, psychology, religion among them, and all of these from a historical perspective. Which led me to learn a lot about all kinds of things, which I have tried to convey simply in my book. The earlier version was 542 pages of densely packed text. I realized it was far too much, so I rewrote it into the current book that is 181 pages of more readable pages.

3.  “Shame on You White Man” seems to be quite an intriguing title. What is the story behind it?

Uday Kagal: I went through many titles during the progression of the book, the last being “Has humanity lost the plot?” The book was triggered by Jared Diamond’s “Guns Germs & Steel”, which sold 1+ million copies and was named one of TIME’s best non-fiction books of all time. But then I changed it at the last minute to the current one, prompted by my reading of Diamond’s recent work, “The World Until Yesterday,” designed to learn from the human past through researching 39 tribal societies.

Diamond is a highly decorated and popular writer, and the book had great reviews. But what I found intriguing was that the whole book centers on conflict, reinforcing a long-standing Western view that humans are inherently violent, a convenient justification for State formation. Moreover, he draws very mundane lessons, for example how to avoid slipping in showers and reducing salt intake. He ignores the more important aspects of human history or tribal societies, that they were egalitarian and sustainable, what I had seen in Bihar.

I found it hypocritical that he went to Papua New Guinea to study birds, and then started writing about his “friends’ there, but he wrote nasty things. The book is most likely based on his earlier article in The New Yorker titled, “Vengeance is Ours,” a tale of how one man in New Guinea seeks vengeance when his uncle is killed. Incidentally, the two people named in the article sued Diamond and The New Yorker, but the case died when their lawyer did. And it made me a bit angry, how White Man tells stories the world buys into, after all they have done. It is an indisputable fact that the West dominated the Rest!

4.  “Shame on You White Man” seems to be a stark presentation of truth on the face of it. Would you tell a little about the book to the readers?

Uday Kagal: As I mentioned earlier, the West has dominated the Rest. The book talks about how this came to be and the impact it has had on the world. It brings out little known facts of history, woven around a narrative designed to challenge the prevailing one dominated by the West (the victors). It is a known truth about history that it is written by the victors.

The book itself contains lots of statistics, but here are a few. Western Europe and the U.S. grew in global GDP share from 9% to 56% just in 500 years, although global GDP grew only in the past 60. About 10% of people own 90% of the wealth today. We have modified a third of the Earth’s surface and increased atmospheric carbon dioxide by 30% in the past 200 years. We have also caused mass extinctions of species (the Holocene Extinction) at 100-1,000 times natural background rates. Wildlife populations have declined 67% just in the past 50 years, and 85% of the world’s fisheries are threatened.

But at what cost? Ironically, we are discontent (the price we pay for civilization, Freud), and disenchanted and dehumanized (a result of capitalism, Max Weber), and experts envisage an increase in human misery in the coming decades. There is also a high probability that we could go extinct in the near future. Was it worth it?

White Man caused all of this, initially through conquering neighboring territories. They then took it global through colonizing the world starting 500 years ago. They subdued most nation-states of the time, wiped out 90% of the indigenous peoples, and also slaughtered most of the ‘mega-fauna.’ In more recent times, the form changed, with the Industrial Revolution and the victory of capitalism. Corporations rule today, most of them Western!

5. Were there any books or readings that instilled the idea of writing “Shame on You White Man”?

Uday Kagal: This is an important question and the answer is a bit long. While the book is a confluence of all my experiences over the years, especially across rural development and the corporate world, as I said earlier, “Guns Germs & Steel” originally triggered it. While I found it fascinating (although long), I was also left wondering about some key aspects of the book, and whether it was merely an elaborate justification for Western dominance. And whether that was the reason they lapped it up?

His main reason for writing the book was to explain why White Man carries more ‘cargo’ and, implicitly, imposes it on the rest (in answer to Yali’s Question), and to quash the racial superiority argument. He also asserts that cultural differences are “idiosyncratic” in answering this question. But mainly he is providing an explanation for why the West came to dominate the Rest.

There are many arguments in the West, a common one is geographic determinism i.e. they had certain locational advantages. Diamond put forward a variation of this i.e. bio-geographical. His main contention was that certain regions in the world e.g. the Fertile Crescent had natural advantages like grasses and livestock, and that Eurasia being broad rather than tall was beneficial for innovations to diffuse along latitudes.

But he does not explain the ‘why,’ instead dedicates a whole big book to answer the ‘how’ it came about i.e. biogeographic causes from 10,000 years ago. Is that really plausible? Could they really have resulted in colonization over the past 500 years, the Industrial Revolution 200 years ago, and the victory of capitalism in recent times?

While Diamond discounts racial superiority, he avoids racism that it implies. Racism has been apparent in numerous institutional forms such as the transatlantic slave trade, racial segregation in the U.S., apartheid in South Africa, genocides such as the Holocaust in Europe, and colonialism globally. Can we truly believe that racism was not a key factor in how the world turned out?

Diamond also discards cultural differences. The West and the Rest were quite different through history, not only ethically, but also on their political, psychological, and religious outlooks. The main point of divergence though arises from an understanding of our intrinsic natures. The West believed we are violent, the East that we are collaborative. The former, therefore, argued for State formation, the latter that Societies could exist without.

Western philosophies were rooted in competition, their politics malevolent, and based on private gain and conquest. Christianity, therefore, considered all humanity as sinful, making them aggressive, and justifying expansionist rationales. Eastern philosophies, on the other hand, were rooted in collaboration, their politics benevolent, and based on public good. Eastern religions, therefore, considered humanity as intrinsically good, making them harmonious. This is elaborated in greater detail in the book. So can we believe that cultural differences did not shape the world?

The fact is that Western Europe was at war within itself for at least 2,500 years; they then took it global through colonization. The underlying motive was always acquisition, manifest as racism, and executed through a religious high ground. Did the West not dominate merely because they wanted to, without concern for the Rest? How could 10,000 year-old factors explain it? And that was the trigger for my book, to challenge the prevailing narrative and provide an alternative one.

6. You have 3 books to your credit before writing “Shame on You White Man.” Please share a little about them with the readers

Uday Kagal: All the books have been inspired by my varied experiences across sectors and geographies.

“Philanthropy Sucks!” was influenced by my rural development days, and elaborates on my “development dilemma.” It addresses my disillusionment with the inefficiencies in the development sector, which arises from guilt and results in unaccountability to capital. But, more importantly, when you give something free (charity), it makes people dependent and less self-reliant. So I see it as a perpetuation of the dominance paradigm.

“Dare to Care” is something most of us know about, because most of us live in this world. Corporations are busy with making profits; managers are disillusioned and disengaged, going through the motions to ensure they can pay off their next EMI. Impact on society and the planet are distant considerations. The book suggests that all this can change if corporations began to truly care more.

“The Origin of Death (Part 1/12)” is wider in scope, a satire on human civilization, addressing ‘civilization and its discontent’ according to Freud. It started out as “Origins,” looking at how things started. The first section is about the origins of Existence (Life, Death and Human Dominance). The second is about the origins of our Social Institutions (Spirituality, Paganism, Religion, and Marriage). The third is about the origins of our Modern Institutions (Markets, State, Civil Society, and Philanthropy). Since it began to get quite long, I split it into parts, published the first, and then aborted it midway to do my current book.

7. After “Philosophy Sucks!” “Origins,” “Dare to Care,” and “Shame on You White Man” the readers have a powerful introduction to your potential as a writer. Can they expect more from you in the future? Please share about your future projects.

Uday Kagal: Writing is exhausting, especially mentally. It also takes up time and not being really good at selling, it means I take time away from feeding the family. So I’m not really sure whether I will or not. But when I did Philanthropy Sucks, I didn't know whether there were going to be any more either.

If I do, I will probably pursue Origins. Each origin has an intriguing insight, for example did you know that life was immortal for the first 2.3 billion years, and death started but 1.2 billion years ago? Or that life emerged from a coalescing of chemicals in the ocean? Or that humans became dominant merely because we became bipedal (to gain a better vantage point for searching for food), which made two limbs redundant, and voila the thumb that allowed us to make and use tools. Religion, however, tells a different story.

8. How was writing “Shame on You White Man” a different experience from writing the earlier 3 books?

Uday Kagal: While each of the books was challenging, the first philanthropy, the second corporations, and the third civilization, this was the most difficult to do. Not only because it took on the ‘victors,’ but also because it challenged the prevailing narrative. More specifically that humans are not intrinsically violent, and that ‘civilization’ has not necessarily meant progress. And capitalism is not necessarily beneficial. 

That is not an easy task because Western philosophers and scholars, who have given exhaustive theories about just about anything, dominate most literature. It is also their first language, and they can be quite eloquent. It also meant going back in history quite a bit (not my field really), and also scanning many different disciplines including history itself, philosophy, politics, biology (especially evolution), religion, and psychology. So it was quite a challenge, very exhausting, but very educational too.

9. How has your experience of travelling for so many years come in handy in your writing in “Shame on You White Man” and other books?

Uday Kagal: I have travelled to over 20 countries mostly on work, but I have also travelled extensively across India, and into the hinterlands. The international travel was mostly the same after a point, another city, more glitter. But my travels across India were most fulfilling because of the diversity, for example Rajasthan and Kerala are so different in their cultures, food habits and lifestyles. But the interactions in Indian villages still keep me grounded because they still retain the sense of community and values that India really is/ was. They still retain some semblance of ‘humanity!’

10. Thank you very much for sparing your time. I look forward to reading more books from you in the future. All the best.

Uday Kagal: Thank you for taking out the time to ask such interesting questions. It made me think about various aspects of the book I hadn’t thought about before. And thank you for your wishes.